Raven Night

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It has come to my attention that some of our patrons are rather harsh when it comes to critiqing work done by new patrons, or those that wish to try something new. Though constructive criticism is always welcomed, there is a line that should not be crossed. Let me give you an example...

BCNewguy posts a wip of a model he is working on. He is brand new to modding, so its not exactly the best mesh ever made. There are lots of errors, and the shape is very basic.

BCUcommunityleader comments: "Great first start, you may want to try avoiding smoothing in the beginning, it will be easier to find errors in the mesh. Send me a PM if you need help. Keep it up, you'll be making nice models in no time.

BCUgrump says: I'm sorry, but it looks like crap. The mesh has a bzillion errors on it and the textures are too plain. I like "someotherguys" version better.

Now, the first comment was constructive, the second punitive. Under our no tolerance policy, the first will be welcomed, the latter earn you a 30 day suspension.

Everyone started somewhere. The best and brightest in the genre all started and n00bs....even I started as a n00b back in the stone ages. This site exists for the sole purpose of developing ships, mods and talent for BC...that means we do not beat someone in the skull the moment they post their work and drive them away.

I hope I have made myself clear. If you have nothing constructive to say, keep your mouth shut or I will shut it for you.

Nuff said.

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Nebula

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Yet another post, I agree totaly with.

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CaptainKeyes

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100% agreement

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gamesfunk

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I agree, but I personally think that some people (people with no experience at all in BC altering) just drop in, begin demanding this and that, and actually think that one is going to do that. That makes me angry. And I also think that one may tell him to shut up and to tell him how it works around here.

But I do concur with the zero-tolerance policy and the example you gave. I do think that we have many beginners here that can evolve to a second Defiant (the TNW-group) or a Viper (like Mark and Sean). We have to help them and not insult them with unconstructive critism. Let's create a 'help-the-n00b-with-potential'-group . Anyway, I totally support you on this.

G.

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W00t Raven !

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I agree, we all started like this, so give them a chance. If you compared my current models to the my previous attempts you would laugh

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Armondikov

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gamesfunk wrote:

I agree, but I personally think that some people (people with no experience at all in BC altering) just drop in, begin demanding this and that, and actually think that one is going to do that. That makes me angry. And I also think that one may tell him to shut up and to tell him how it works around here. G.

Some can be like that but they're not as common as the people we're reffering to here. It's up to staff to differentiate between n00bs who are just that, n00bs (therefore don't know any better) and the ones who are just here to grab freebies, plagerise work and generally act the "oh so innocent fool" when their blatantly not.

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Jeffrey Walker

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Wow this place is gettin dictatorial. Im sorry to say but what is the point of a forum if you cant express yourself ? (Note I dont make rude statements on others work but Im just sayin ya know) some criticism can be justified but not totally trashin people.

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Raven Night

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Jeffrey Walker wrote:

Wow this place is gettin dictatorial. Im sorry to say but what is the point of a forum if you cant express yourself ? (Note I dont make rude statements on others work but Im just sayin ya know) some criticism can be justified but not totally trashin people.

I wouldn't disaggree with you there Jeffrey. The current state of affairs here is definitely a dictatorship, at least for the moment. It is how it was when I first took over....does anyone remember the all-night banathon?

...and for the short term it is how it is now. BCU has gotten a bit sloppy, so I need to tighten it up. Once it is back in line I will relax my grip a bit, but for now it's going to be a little.......lets say repressed for lack of a better word.

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JimmyB76

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i would also like to add in that, if it's ok, i really dont wanna see anymore patrons jump down new patrons throats if they should resurrect some thread by posting compliments, ideas, or whetever (even if they should ask for updates) to the author of a thread that hasnt been posted in for some time... not everyone is aware of what i guess is "forum etiquette" and need to be cut some slack...

the idea is to welcome new people to the boards and if they are on their first posts and are being chastized by more-than-one patron for "necroposting", would give them a feeling of being ganged up on and unwelcomed, and would surely reinforce their decision to not return here to BCU...

so please leave it to the forum moderators to fill the new patrons in on how things flow here and remember each of us was a "newbie" at one time too...

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starforce2

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Jeffrey Walker wrote:

Wow this place is gettin dictatorial. Im sorry to say but what is the point of a forum if you cant express yourself ? (Note I dont make rude statements on others work but Im just sayin ya know) some criticism can be justified but not totally trashin people.

I also agree with this, as well as raven's reason for doing what he does. I believe that if you can say it rocks, you should be able to say it sucks. Otherwise, we wind up with a community that is allowed to do nothing but essentialy "kiss a**" which leads to "full of them selves" modders, which in my opinion, is just as bad as people who outright slag off, because then said people think they are entitled and thus above the rules, or just better than everyone else. just my 2 cents. Problem is if the place is allowed to go to hell, there wont be any new people posting in the first place.

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JimmyB76

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true... but constructive critisism is one thing and trashing someone else's work with no reason (i.e. ideas to help improve) is another... it depends on how eloquent people can be with their posts... and true, not everyone is skilled in the arts of "sugar-coating" per se, or being able to say "well i think this is wrong and this is off and this looks bad... etc etc... but here's my ideas to help improve your work", or even "i dont like this one, i'll pass, but good effort anyway (which is better than just saying "wow this just totally sucks!")...
and of course there are those chronic critiquers that can never be satisifed no matter what a modder tries to do... heh
but outright trashing someone's work with one sentence, IMO is just not cool and cant be anything other than negative...
some people that spend hours of their free time building something and get nothing but trash comments back will most certainly make them feel less inclined to do other projects...
its a tricky edge to tread upon really... but the bottom line, IMO, is all about support... thats what keeps things strong... and even if the support is not agreeing with someone's work...

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I can agree to a certain extend with what you jimmy and you sf2 have said, but consider that one well-placed 'wow this really sucks - go home and try again..." might also get people to really go home and constantly trying to improve themselves which in turn leads to a much better model/mod etc. in the future.
of course people shouldn't outright trash anyone else's work in a too harsh manner from the start.
on the other hand of course, BC Modding IMO has reached a stage where we've seen almost anything by now and we should be allowed to say that the new sovvie kitbash is nothing new and (even if its made well) people might come about with some better ideas.

bottom line: you can't forbid people to express their taste by telling them they'll be banned if they do.
IMO that is as harsh as the people raven critizises.
BUT, to say the least, people should also be accustomed to the nettiquette if they express their opinion.

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Treleth

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I think Raven is doing the right thing, by telling people their skills are crap, what do these aspiring modders do? They simply stop modding, who knows, what if someone told CG, or Scotchy, their first mods were crap? They wouldn't have created their resective mods (which are amazing BTW).

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sneaker98

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gamesfunk wrote:

I agree, but I personally think that some people (people with no experience at all in BC altering) just drop in, begin demanding this and that, and actually think that one is going to do that. That makes me angry. And I also think that one may tell him to shut up and to tell him how it works around here.

There will always be people like that. Folks who think they can pop in, do no work, and boss some modders around to get some grandios project finished.

Do you know how to handle them? By ignoring them. They're not going to get their team together, so why bother.

And if I catch one of you telling any modder, whether known or not, to shut up, you'll earn yourselves a suspension.

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Raven Night wrote:

I wouldn't disaggree with you there Jeffrey. The current state of affairs here is definitely a dictatorship, at least for the moment. It is how it was when I first took over....does anyone remember the all-night banathon?

I would love to say here that, "The more you tighten your grip, Admiral Raven, the more star systems will slip through your fingers," except I agree with the Big Master's policy, and portraying the guy one supports as Grand Moff Tarkin would make one... what? Admiral Daala?

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Raven Night

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Lol

Well, I suppose I can put it this way. I was sold this site because the prior owner, among other reasons, knew my rep with respect to cleaning up forums. I've been doing it this way for years.

So I do what works. I've said it before, I'll say it again.

This is not a democracy. I am not fair. I run a tight ship, I am not interested in personal freedoms in this place. There is no such thing.

Now, that said, I can extend certain priviledges when earned. With time, things will return to normal where I loosen up on the wheel and allow more freedoms among the patrons.

My current crackdown is only due to a lack of control. When that control is back in place, I will gladly recind the zero tolerance policy and let things return to normal.

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Armondikov

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Well, you run a reasonably fair, sane and logical dictatorship (ie, you can backup what you do). I'd choose that over democracy any day

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moed

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It's all about common courtesy and respect for each other.

Remember, first and foremost we love BC because we are Star Trek fans.

What are the fundamental ideals of Star Trek the way that Gene Roddenberry envisioned...

Tolerance and acceptance

Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combination

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Armondikov wrote:

Well, you run a reasonably fair, sane and logical dictatorship (ie, you can backup what you do). I'd choose that over democracy any day

Dubai functions 100% more efficiently than the UK for that very reason.

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I demand a benevolent dictatorship in Britain

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What Raven is saying only makes sense. It seems like common logic to me. If one critiques work, they have to offer something useful for the modder to work on that will improve themselves (just as the example shows) else it's a complete waste of time and bandwidth. That, and why would anyone want to gain the reputation of being uselessly rude? If there's a problem with it, say how to fix it, not just that there's a problem! Why else is congress so inefficent than because they just sit around moaning about problems without thinking up a single line of what to do about it. And we don't want BCU to become like congress, dooooo we?

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I completely agree with what Raven said, and also DEFIANTLY agree with what Jimmy said in regards to "attacking new members". It is simple common sense that there is a clear difference between Criticism and Trashing...one person can clearly criticise, but if they have a problem with something they should at least explain why they dont like it, or give suggestions...

We've had many mods which people criticise, and to be honest its really upsetting when you feel you have done a good job only to be met with harsh comments. I believe a 30ban is somewhat over the top, but if people are not punished for such actions then they are free to do it again and again. Co-operation is what makes things work, people should learn to repect the work of others, even if they dont like it. I actually welcome these changes and enforcement of the rules, not because I like Rules...but because i have felt that to some degree BCU has let slip, and people have been acting too big for there boots.

Either way im sure BCU will get better, we want the doors opened to the BCU community, especially modders or else BC will die much quicker...and the only way to do it is to play on a nice clean ground...

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Completly agreed whit Mr. Raven...
I was a victim myself several times of this kind of annoying and destructive criticism... After so many agressions, I decided to participate less and less in time on this site... And I'm not what you can say a "new"... What is a shame, cos I think it's great site...

Luckly, the most of us knows perfectly good about what people we are talking about...

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TBH I'd much rather be on a forum under Raven's Dictatorship than most other forum's free system.

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bbbb

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Leadership is indeed the act of bringing people together for a common purpose. If we bash newbies (I guess I'm one of those) then that sets a bad example. I would also say that bashing more experienced members is also bad. A dictatorship can work but one should remember, you get more with honey than vinegar. That's a lesson Niteshdw's forum moderators didn't learn hence why that forum is doing a lot worse then it could be. Driving people away is no way for a forum to run.

Hmm... Just saw the date for this topic's last post, nov 2005. Sorry about that but this topic is way up on top of the page, I assumed it was still active. Perhaps old topics should be moved down the page so only the new ones are on top?

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Thats true. But this is an Announcement... so it's always at the top.

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also you have had a valid point to add to this discussion, so you shall be forgiven.

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bbbb wrote:

. Driving people away is no way for a forum to run.

You are right about this point, but it's also true that it's no easy to run a forum...

I know that for my own experience on our own forums. Sometimes, some people do not understand the fact that to participate on other people forums it's not a RIGHT, it's a luxury.... And in that case, you have to make feel the weight of your possition...

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Amen to that, it's not like we forum owners sacrifice our time to see some people spam our place to hell with sentences like:

Quote:

OMG THIS IS SOOOOOOOO AMAAAAZING; CAN ANY1 MAKE TEH COOOL SHIP FROM TEH SHOW???????ßßß

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